New Matter: Inside the Minds of SLAS Scientists
New Matter: Inside the Minds of SLAS Scientists
Accessibility in the Lab | Navigating Diversity in Drug Discovery with Brandon Miller (Sponsored by Roche)
This installment of our Accessibility in the Lab series features Brandon Miller, Client Solutions Executive and Diversity Services Lead at Clarkston Consulting. The discussion centers around diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) issues in the lab and the life sciences industry.
The conversation emphasizes how understanding diverse communities leads to better product development and marketing strategies. Brandon explains how DEI practices, such as hiring diverse talent and fostering inclusive workplace cultures, directly impact the quality and success of life science products, from drug development to marketing campaigns.
Host Hannah Rosen, Ph.D., and Miller further discuss the importance of DEI in clinical trials, highlighting historical inequities and recent efforts by regulatory bodies like the FDA to promote diversity.
Full Transcript Available on Buzzsprout
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SLAS (Society for Laboratory Automation and Screening) is an international professional society of academic, industry and government life sciences researchers and the developers and providers of laboratory automation technology. The SLAS mission is to bring together researchers in academia, industry and government to advance life sciences discovery and technology via education, knowledge exchange and global community building.
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Hannah Rosen: 00:00:05 Hello everyone. Welcome to New Matter, the SLAS podcast where we interview Life Science luminaries. I'm your host, Hannah Rosen, and today we are continuing our series discussing diversity, equity, and inclusion issues in the lab with Brandon Miller, Client Solutions Executive and the Diversity Services Lead at Clarkston Consulting. Welcome to the podcast, Brandon.
Brandon Miller: 00:00:26 Thank you. I am super excited to be here. Looking forward to the conversation.
Hannah Rosen: 00:00:30 Yeah, me too. So, to start us off, can you just kind of give us a little bit of your professional background and what it is you do?
Brandon Miller: 00:00:39 Yes, absolutely. Um, like you mentioned, my name's Brandon Miller. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm a client solutions executive in the diversity, equity and inclusion services lead for Clarkson Consulting. Uh, we are a technology and management consulting firm that's based in Raleigh Durham. Um, and we support clients around the globe. We typically, in, in my work and in our firm's work, we support companies in retail, consumer products and life sciences. And we support them kind of across their business in all areas from management and strategy support to operations, supply chain type of work to technology implementations. Um, so I've been doing this work for about a decade with Clarkston. I joined the firm directly outta college, studied biomedical engineering at Georgia Tech. Um, and outside of this work, I'm also really passionate about travel and travel equity. So, I am a co-founder and help lead, uh, the Two Fly Foundation, which is a nonprofit that supports travel equity. We provide passports, travel grants, and educational resources for students. So that's a little bit about kind of my world and the world that I play in.
Hannah Rosen: 00:01:53 Yeah. Wow, that's really cool. I never thought about travel equity as you put it, but this, that's a really interesting field. What, so, you know, can you kind of maybe tell us a little bit about, you know, I wanna know more about what travel equity means, but also kind of just what got you interested in these, these sort of things and, and DEI initiatives in general?
Brandon Miller: 00:02:16 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I think for me, right, I've always been involved, whether it's tangentially or kind of head on with diversity, equity, and inclusion type of work, even from a really young age. Um, a little bit about me, I traveled a lot as a kid. Uh, we moved around quite a bit. My dad was in sales. Um, so I was kind of used to picking up, moving, having to kind of meet and get to know new folks. I was oftentimes one of the only, or the few, uh, black males in my classes or in my neighborhood. So, I've always kind of understood kind of the dynamics of not only finding commonalities, but accepting and acknowledging differences as well. Um, as I've kind of grown and, uh, gone through, you know, high school into college, into my professional life, I've been involved in various organizations, but supporting inclusivity, diversity and equity has really been important to me to kind of bridge the gap.
Brandon Miller: 00:03:22 You mentioned, uh, travel equity a bit. I feel like, personally, right, I've learned so much about DEI through international travel. It's one of my passions. Um, having the opportunity to study abroad and to travel abroad, I kind of realize that when I'm in uncomfortable scenario sometimes, right, in a different country, folks are speaking different languages, they may or may not look like you, you learn so much, not only about yourself, but developing a global perspective and curiosity, appreciating differences. Um, so that travel experience in itself helped kind of shape my mindset and helped me kind of lean into the DEI work that I do today. Um, and when you kind of think about the travel space, right? And a majority of those that travel or have study abroad, volunteer abroad, uh, opportunities, they don't look like me, right? They're not black and brown students. Um, so the work that I do outside of Clarkston related to travel equity is ensuring that we are kind of creating pathways and breaking down barriers so other students, uh, have the opportunity to travel abroad, get those experiences that I and so many other folks have gotten, which they can take later in life, take to the workplace, uh, et cetera.
Hannah Rosen: 00:04:44 Oh, yeah, I mean, that sounds like a great initiative and yeah, that's something that I think is definitely needed, 'cause everybody always talks about, you know, how transformative international travel can be to a person, but it is something that is great privilege to be able to travel internationally. And so that's fantastic to try to get that accessible to more people.
Brandon Miller: 00:05:04 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Hannah Rosen: 00:05:05 So, you know, you mentioned that Clarkston Consulting does just a huge array of, you know, different types of consulting in different fields. Can you tell us a little bit about what, you know, what do you tend to focus on and how does DEI factor into your, your role at Clarkston?
Brandon Miller: 00:05:22 Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I've worn many hats, um, in my, my last 10 years, uh, at Clarkston. Um, and I've supported our clients across all of those industries that I've mentioned. Um, I've done everything for quality assurance and testing, support technical roles and supply chain and serialization of our pharmaceutical companies to project coordinator, project management, and portfolio management work. The past several years, I've, I've been mainly focused in business transformation initiatives for our clients, um, in the PMO or project management office space, but in parallel, right, I've been doing DE and I work. Um, so I led our internal diversity council for about six years. Um, and in that, that is helping to develop training curriculum, help develop marketing initiatives, um, and a, a plethora of other or DEI focused initiatives that are internal to Clarkston related to our people and our culture. And through that work, we're kind of thinking like, right, we're making all of this great progress,
Brandon Miller: 00:06:30 we're elevating DEI, we're making it commonplace to talk about, but we're also consultants, so why don't we serve our clients in the same capacity? Um, so as we started to kind of noodle on that and develop, well, where do our clients need the most support? We developed our diversity, equity, and inclusion services, and for the past several years, we've been helping clients in the DEI space. Um, and that's both things that are internal to our client's organization, right? Thinking about things like trainings, um, seminars and internal workshops to DEI strategy and helping our clients develop roadmaps for their internal DEI journey, um, coaching executives in the DEI space and people analytics. So, leveraging our analytics platform to help uncover where inequities might exist and kind of get a pulse check or a diagnostic of the DEI health at an organization that slowly started to transition into, uh, some of the things that we might talk about on this podcast. But how do we help our clients externally from a DEI, uh, perspective to ensure that there is product inclusivity, thinking about multicultural marketing, thinking about things like how do we incorporate diversity, equity and inclusion into our drug development, our product development, uh, life cycle, right, uh, supplier diversity, and so many other areas that are more externally focused and directly related to our clients, uh, bottom line.
Hannah Rosen: 00:08:03 Yeah. So, speaking of which, you know, why is it so important for people to be considering DE and I when developing say, like, you know, drugs or other life science products?
Brandon Miller: 00:08:17 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, I always start off like this type of question with DEI is the right thing to do. Regardless of the industry you're in, the type of work that you do, making sure that you're creating spaces where people feel valued, feel heard, the processes are equitable, um, is, uh, just paramount, right, from a ethical, moral standpoint, but specifically to the life science industry, right? There are so many, uh, opportunities and, and an upside to really considering DEI and, and embedding it in all that you do, right? First, it helps you really and intimately understand the people that you serve. Um, whether it's internal initiatives or external initiatives, you're developing lifesaving, um, drugs or therapeutics, right? It's important to really understand these different communities often, which are communities that don't look like you, don't think like you, or have the same background as you or those that you most commonly interact with.
Brandon Miller: 00:09:20 Um, so getting that understanding of the people that you serve, what are their needs? What are their challenges, what are the barriers? And how does your product, uh, affect these different demographics differently because your products potentially can, right? Um, developing trust and building relationships with these communities is key. Um, kind of understanding, um, some of the barriers, especially in the healthcare or life science industry, that some of these, uh, marginalized or underrepresented communities may feel. There's, there's a distrust, uh, that's been documented and discussed between, um, some marginalized communities and the life science industry. Um, so developing these initiatives that can help rebuild that trust, um, is gonna be key not only through your clinical stages, but in your commercial stages as well. Um, and then I would just say, right, helping to increase innovation within your organization. Uh, there's plenty of studies that show the upside of having not only diverse, uh, inherent diversity, things like race, gender, age, things that you're born with, but also acquire diversity, different experiences, diversity of thought, um, being able to bring those different perspectives to the table and help increase, uh, innovation and, and productivity and making the right decision quicker.
Brandon Miller: 00:10:46 Um, so yeah, definitely, definitely paramount in the life science space.
Hannah Rosen: 00:10:52 Yeah. Could you speak a little bit more to how some of those internal DE and I like, hiring practices or, you know, um, strategies for helping your employees, uh, can really help impact the quality of those end products? Because I think that a lot of times, you know, when we talk about DE and I, we focus a lot on the workplace culture, which is very important and, and needs to be discussed, but I understand that it also can really impact the quality of the products that you're producing as well. So, could you speak a little bit to that?
Brandon Miller: 00:11:24 Yeah, and I, I think that's a, a great kind of segue from kind of the last point around innovation, being able to make, uh, tough decisions quickly, right? So, there's studies that show having a diverse array of folks at the table when making a decision, it's challenging, right? It's going to be harder, you're gonna have different viewpoints, but it roots out, um, more easily or mitigates unconscious bias, confirmation bias, things like that that might come to the table, having those diverse perspectives. Um, so it's everything from kind of who you hire and being really intentional about who you're bringing in through either early career programs, internship programs, but also experience hires who you're hiring into leadership. But the other portion of that too is, um, retention and succession planning, right? Are you creating an inclusive space and culture where people want to stay, where they want to thrive, where they want to bring their ideas to the table because they feel like they'll be valued and earned.
Brandon Miller: 00:12:30 And when you create that culture and you can retain this talent that knows your products and your processes and your patients, that's when you'll be able to turn right diversity and really inclusion into a tool that could help you make better decisions. It can help you, um, more authentically and accurately market to a diverse array of patients. It'll help you in R&D when thinking about what are some of the questions that we're not asking? What are some of the adverse effects that this product could have, right? Um, you're having more, you have more, uh, diversity of thought at the table that can kind of challenge some of those things. Um, and then when it comes to things like clinical trials, representation matters not only internally, but to your stakeholders externally, right? If they see folks that are participating in these clinical trials, running these clinical trials that look like them, there's going to be, uh, a, a higher likelihood that they'll be willing to participate or interested in participating. Um, all of these things directly relate to the product itself and the market's, uh, perception and reception to that product.
Hannah Rosen: 00:13:50 Yeah, it just makes me think of, I feel like there, everybody can think of an instance of, is when you think about marketing of just any popular products where they've been launched with a marketing campaign and the world immediately goes, oh, no, what were you thinking with that <laugh>? It's very clear that they had one type of person in that room and nobody saw the problem <laugh>, right?
Brandon Miller: 00:14:09 Or they had, they might have, and that's the thing with DE and I, right, we often lump them together, but they all mean different things, and they're all important to the conversation and, and, uh, to operations, because we'll have companies that there might be diversity at the table, but if they don't feel valued or they don't feel empowered to speak up and say, oh, maybe this isn't the right, you know, type of messaging for this ad, or this isn't the type of marketing campaign we need to leverage for this community, if they don't feel empowered to do that, then some of these marketing, uh, initiatives that fall flat, uh, still get green lit and still get passed through. Uh, so it's important not only who you have at the table, but that you feel that they feel empowered to speak up and, and to kind of share their perspective.
Hannah Rosen: 00:15:04 Yeah. And that seems really tricky to do because I can imagine, you know, if you've got your boardroom or whatever, and you've got people that have a very specific life experience and they hear somebody else saying something that doesn't resonate with them, it must be hard to kind of be able to parse out, okay, am I rejecting this idea because it's not a good idea or because it just doesn't resonate with my lived experience, and how do people navigate that?
Brandon Miller: 00:15:30 Yeah, it's, it's a challenge, and that's why I personally feel like there's often hesitancy to embark on DEI programs, initiatives, and strategies, because it's not a, you know, one size fit all solution, and it's usually a comprehensive program that's needed to make change, right? Um, a lot of that comes down to psychological safety and ensuring that you have a culture where people know and feel, uh, like, they can speak up, but also folks know how to respond to someone speaking up, right? So, it goes both ways. We often hear about training of like, you know, speaking truth to power or speaking up or empowering your employees. And those are fantastic, and I know a lot of organizations have those, and they should have those. But equally important is we need to be training our managers and our leaders and other decision makers. Here's how you create these safe spaces or brave spaces.
Brandon Miller: 00:16:30 This is how, right, we as a company, um, respond to different viewpoints and different ideas. Here's how we do so tactfully, respectfully, or in alignment with our core values. Um, so I think that is part of the equation as well. And it's really important for all companies to get this right, but it's really important, uh, for life science companies to understand this and to get this right, because, you know, the impact might not just be sales are up or down, the impact could be life or death or adverse effects. Um, so I think that's why I love that we're having this conversation, and I don't think this conversation in this industry necessarily happens enough, um, but it's, it's really important.
Hannah Rosen: 00:17:21 So what are some of the steps that companies can use to help to really incorporate DE and I into their, you know, maybe preexisting product development life cycles?
Brandon Miller: 00:17:31 Yeah. Um, I think there, there's different things that you can do across kind of the continuum or across the lifecycle. First and foremost, what we've kind of been talking about so far in this conversation is representation matters, diverse representation across all roles across the, uh, drug development life cycle is key. Uh, these are your decision makers. Um, these are leadership in your project teams, your project managers, uh, your clinical trial teams, your clinical trial investigators, right? And encouraging folks that have varied lived experiences to feel empowered to help make the right decisions and inclusive decisions across, uh, the entire life cycle. Uh, I think a second piece is when we're thinking about kind of that preclinical research is, um, really looking at real world data, um, across all demographics as you're starting to do kind of the research for your drug or your therapeutic, um, the initial research and even during kind of like lab and animal testing phases, um, or recruiting participant, uh, participants from different demographics, being really intentional about that recruitment and authentic in that recruitment.
Brandon Miller: 00:18:56 Um, and considering really the factors is asking the question of who might this exclude or what might happen for different demographics, um, based on this drug or this therapeutic. But it's really taking a step back. Uh, I think we have so many different tools now at our disposal to really be able to ingest data quickly, leverage and review data quickly, um, but really making sure that kind of demographic, uh, differences is part of that research. I think as you get into, uh, your clinical trials and your clinical research, it's ensuring that all those that are art of that phase have had, um, unconscious bias training and cultural sensitivity training, um, as they're going to be dealing with participants and patients throughout the process. They should feel equipped to answer questions, feel empowered, um, to challenge things that they might not feel are equitable or exclusive as a part of that phase.
Brandon Miller: 00:20:04 Um, and really just, again, having that representation during that phase. Uh, another thing that we like to advise our clients on is establishing a strong kind of data analysis team and, and acumen within house. Um, a lot of companies already have this, right? But it's equipping them and training them. Here are things to look for from a demographic and a diversity perspective, um, not only during the research phase of the clinical trials, but also as you get into kind of post-market analysis after your drug is approved or commercialized, you should continually, continuously rather, um, be looking at this data, understanding where gaps may arise and being able to adjust for your next kind of set of, uh, your next drug or your next product.
Hannah Rosen: 00:20:57 Yeah. It sounds like it's really important to have this incorporated into your project plan at the very beginning stages of the process, because you need to prepare, I would imagine, you know, all of your stakeholders for the potential need to pivot. If you're doing this research and you're realizing that maybe a drug isn't reaching a particular demographic and you wanna adjust for that, you need to have the, the preparation in place to know that that's a possibility in order to get that sort of buy-in.
Brandon Miller: 00:21:28 Absolutely. Absolutely.
Hannah Rosen: 00:21:29 Yeah. Yeah. So, let's say that there is somebody out there who's listening to this podcast and they're not a high, super high level decision maker at their company or their organization, but they really are listening to what you're saying and realizing that these DE and I initiatives are imperative to their work. How can they make the case to their leadership that they really need to start implementing these initiatives and that they are worthwhile?
Brandon Miller: 00:21:58 Yeah. Uh, this is always a, a challenging one. Um, it can be done and it, it's done over and over, right? But it's, what's the business case for DEI? Um, it's the right thing to do. That's the main business case. But understanding kind of the climate that we're in, it's important to be able to kind of quantify impact or at least have factors that you can specifically go after, um, or communicate to your leadership team to make the importance sticky and to make it kind of resonate with whoever those decision makers are. Um, I try and break it down when we're talking to our clients or companies or like, whomever about DEI, and it's asking yourself, what is the value of doing something? Like, what's the upside that we're gonna see? And it can be qualitative or it can be quantitative, quantitative. It can be the top line dollars that we'll, we will see can be the increase in employee engagement, the feelings of belonging.
Brandon Miller: 00:23:01 It can be the ability to diversify our leadership team over time and our decision makers, right? The value of doing something. But then there's also the risk of doing nothing, right? What happens if we don't make any changes? Um, what are the potential dollars that can be lost? What are the impacts if we put a drug on the market and there's adverse effects within certain communities, right? Cost companies billions of dollars, right? Um, what is our current turnover over today? What is it tomorrow? What could it be tomorrow if we don't do anything to address, uh, diversity and equity within our organization? Um, so the value of doing something, the risk of doing nothing, and you can look at it across a few different domains. Um, right? The first is like, your organization, like your house, the four wall that you work in, right?
Brandon Miller: 00:23:56 Do we have a vision? Do we have goals, we have commitments? Um, and kind of talking it through, here's how we can get to a desired end state. Um, what are our diversity and representation numbers and our metrics, um, and how does this tie to health equity that our company believes in or is striving for, right? So, starting with the organization. The second would be looking at your organization's kind of foundation. Um, so your offerings, so looking at your various teams, is there somewhere that you can kind of starve and say, Hey, let's, let's start small. Let's start with our R&D team, right? We're trying to make a drug that appeals to all of these different populations or subgroups. Does our R&D team reflect the groups that we're trying to serve? Our marketing team, if we are trying to market to these new geographic regions or these new subgroups, is our marketing team representative or have the acumen to do that inclusively and authentically our tech team supply chain, right?
Brandon Miller: 00:25:05 You can run that down and just say, where can we start small and make impact, um, through your offerings or your foundation? And then you kind of bubble out outside of your house. It's your, your community, right? Are there partnerships? Is there community programs that you can invest in that not only will help you connect with a specific population, but uh, will also help the appeal in the press and the right brand recognition of your organization? Gilead does a really great job of this, BMS, Novartis, just to name like a few, um, folks that I think are really impressive with developing community programs that are intentional, um, are to a specific marginalized group. And there's a long-term plan of how can this help our company's understanding of the group? How can we, how can it help us with clinical trial recruitment, with understanding with marketing, all of these things.
Brandon Miller: 00:26:12 Um, and then the last thing I would say is like, ecosystem, which I would, for using the house metaphor, I don't know why I went that route, but we're using the house metaphor, ecosystem would be like, your city, right? Thinking about things like supplier diversity, leveraging local vendors, collaborating with stakeholders like key opinion leaders, healthcare professionals, community groups, uh, that are in your community, which is a great way for organizations to kind of start that DE and I conversation of like, let's bring folks in to our house that really know these groups that we might not have representation for or, uh, we're struggling to connect with and help have them inform us with what initiatives make sense, but how our brand is bringing perceived by the community, um, what gaps we need to fill, et cetera.
Hannah Rosen: 00:27:06 Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. We go to, you know, we try to go to the subject matter experts when it comes to the drug in question or the body system or the disease. So why not go to the experts on the community that we're looking to, to expand to?
Brandon Miller: 00:27:21 Absolutely.
Hannah Rosen: 00:27:22 Yeah. So, you'd mentioned, um, a bit earlier about how important DE and I is to clinical trial enrollment. Um, and so I'd love it if you could just maybe speak a little bit more to the history of clinical trials and, and why DE and I is so important there.
Brandon Miller: 00:27:42 Yeah. So, thinking back, um, to like, the 1800s, early 1900s, right? The challenges that as kind of, the FDA and, uh, clinical trials were being, like, the norms and best practices were being developed, there's a lot of, there was a lot of studies that were done that were inequitable over time for, for different groups, right? Tuskegee experiment is one of the ones that were, are, are most commonly referenced, um, as inequitable to the black men participants that were given syphilis in the study. But over time, right, it's been kind of a, a slow progression to create more equitable, um, more actionable higher transparency in the clinical trial and the drug development process. Um, and there's a long list of studies and, um, and guidance and kind of feedback that were, were provided based on those studies to make clinical trials more effective and equitable.
Brandon Miller: 00:28:50 Um, backing up to like, maybe more recent history, um, we've seen a, a huge push from the FDA themselves to create opportunities for more equitable clinical trials. Um, 2020, I believe is like, when the first guidance went out that really focused on enhancing diversity through eligibility criteria, enrollment practices, clinical trial designs, um, and it was provided as like, draft guidance, um, for equitable clinical trials across different demographics of diversity. But since then, we've seen more guidance and more feedback come, come out from the FDA on how we can increase diversity through things like digital health technologies, um, and data acquisition with what are some new tools that you can leverage to collect data in your clinical trials. Um, guidance on submitting documents with real world data and real world evidence. Um, being able to kind of compare the studies that you do during your clinical trials with other real world data that can kind of supplement the work that you're doing, um, all the way up to like, most recent 2022, um, considerations for externally controlled trials, guidance on decentralized clinical trials, and what I'm expecting to come in 2024, which is kind of final guidance on diversity action plans for clinical trials, where, um, you are responsible for providing information on the disease, on the drug or the therapeutic, um, on the demographic breakdown of those affected by the disease.
Brandon Miller: 00:30:41 Um, and what your metrics or your goals are for diversity participation in your clinical trials. Um, we're expected to get guidance on that this year, as well as continued guidance on decentralized clinical trials and how to make it a little bit easier and equitable to operate and facilitate these clinical trials to get a larger population base and a more diverse population base. Um, I also kind of see, uh, I'm not sure what to expect specifically, but traditionally some of the most recent guidance related to diversity is around race, ethnicity, and gender. Um, I can see that there might be more demographics that are of focus for diversity such as gender identity, sexual orientation of lifestyle, um, socioeconomic status, as well as some of the more traditional things like comorbidity and kind of pregnancy, uh, status. But a more, a wider range of diverse demographics, I think is gonna be looked at here in the near future.
Hannah Rosen: 00:31:46 Now, are these, when the FDA is releasing these guidelines, are they just kind of suggestions for best practices or are they requirements that if you want FDA approval, you have to have a certain measure of diversity in your study?
Brandon Miller: 00:31:59 Yeah, so it's a mix of both. So, sometimes the FDA will, uh, release draft guidance, which is that just drafts kind of guidelines, um, or final guide, uh, final guidance or final requirements where this is now something that is required, um, with the diversity action plans. I'm thinking it might be the latter, um, but mainly focused, if I'm not mistaken, on late stage clinical trials. So like phase three clinical trials.
Hannah Rosen: 00:32:32 Yeah. And that what you mentioned about, you know, the decentralization of the clinical trials, that seems like a, a big one to me. 'cause I know, know, you know, historically you've had to be able to go to the one or two locations where the clinical trials are being held. And I imagine that that's a huge barrier for a lot of demographics.
Brandon Miller: 00:32:50 Yeah. When you think about if I wanna participate in a clinical trial, I have to think about things like taking off work. Can I afford to take off work, worrying about childcare? Can I afford childcare? Do I have childcare near me? Transportation? How do I get there if I don't have a car, do I have to pay for a bus? Do I have to take the bus? Um, so there's so many barriers, um, or participation or underrepresented in marginalized groups traditionally. Um, so with advances in decentralized clinical trials and digital technology tools, uh, like telehealth and, um, tools or treatment that can be shipped to patients' homes, things like that, that really opens the door to create more equitable access, um, for a larger group of the population.
Hannah Rosen: 00:33:42 But I imagine also that that probably comes along with making people aware that these clinical trials even exist and that these decentralized methods are, are put in place. 'cause there's probably a lot of people who just wouldn't even think that that's something that would be an option for them. So how do we communicate these opportunities?
Brandon Miller: 00:34:02 Yeah, and I think that's a, that's a big one, right? The traditional method, especially when thinking about increasing diversity in clinical trials has been partnering with community groups, community institutions, churches, local groups, places of worship, right? To reach these populations, that's kind of the traditional method. But what we've seen as of late, right, is an opportunity to leverage, um, digital marketing and content marketing things that we see, um, companies outside of life science do to communicate with their consumers. We can start to leverage for the life science industry, thinking about social media marketing, text marketing, content marketing, all of these tools that aren't, um, kind of like legacy mechanisms of communicating clinical trials, um, can be done. And thinking about taking kind of the influencer model, right? Of who can we find in these communities that these communities trust that can help support kind of the clinical trial that we're trying to do, or help us spread that word, um, and, and bridge that gap with some of these communities. Um, we also kind of, we put out some recent thought leadership on, um, digital marketing tactics for clinical trials and like, leveraging SEO and like, there's like the world's your oyster when it comes to like, new ways of being able to develop, uh, marketing strategies for your clinical trial.
Hannah Rosen: 00:35:38 Hmm. I do wonder, 'cause you know, you said that there can be a lot of distrust among some of these communities and for good reasons a lot of the times. Um, you know, by, by doing these sort of targeted ads or, or ads on, you know, marketing through social media, these non-traditional channels, I feel like it, you know, it has the opportunity to reach people in a new way, but it could also potentially increase the distrust that people might have. So how does that, you know, what's the balance there?
Brandon Miller: 00:36:08 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's certainly a balance and it's, again, going back to that language inclusivity and authentic, right? It's not pushing, Hey, come participate in this trial, but it can be educating on the disease. It could be educating on the drug and have nothing to do with the clinical trial. But you're starting to kind of develop acumen and knowledge within this community about what you're trying to address. And when it gets to the point of now it's time for enrollment, they're already aware and, and not in a pushy fashion of the disease, how it might affect my community. Why, you know, it's important to get representatives from different backgrounds. So, organizations and, and companies should be thinking about this as a part of who they are, not a part of just clinical trial enrollment. Um, when I think about Gilead was the example that I gave earlier.
Brandon Miller: 00:37:09 I often see like, Gilead stickers or posters in my local barbershop, or I'll see events where Gilead is hosting a community forum where they're just talking about, um, diseases that they, that they have treatment or therapeutics for. But it's not for clinical trials. It's purely awareness. And I feel like it's for my community's benefit to learn and to understand and to connect with the folks that are part of the, the drug or therapeutic development. So now, if Gilead ever asked for participation in a clinical trial, I've already had three years of exposure to them just being invested in the community. Um, so that's why I think it, it really needs to be part of an organization's culture and who they are. And one of the hardest pieces of DEI is, you have to play the long game. You can't expect to do something on month one and see a, you know, a dramatic return on month three. Um, you have to, you have to play that long game to really realize the benefits and to really turn DEI into a tool for your organization.
Hannah Rosen: 00:38:22 Wow. Well, those are some really valuable insights and, and just been such an interesting conversation. So, Brandon, I wanna thank you for, for taking the time to come on the podcast, uh, and share your insights and I'm sure, sure, you know, if there's anybody listening who wants to learn more, are they, can they, where can they reach you?
Brandon Miller: 00:38:41 Yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to reach me and my, my company where we talk about these things often is clarkstonconsulting.com. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonemiller. Um, and happy to, to connect with you all.
Hannah Rosen: 00:39:01 Awesome. Well, well thank you so much Brandon, and I look forward to continuing these very, very important discussions around D and I initiatives.
Brandon Miller: 00:39:11 Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
