New Matter: Inside the Minds of SLAS Scientists

Accessibility in Lab | Accessibility in the Workforce with Logan Gin, Ph.D.

January 09, 2023 SLAS Episode 137
New Matter: Inside the Minds of SLAS Scientists
Accessibility in Lab | Accessibility in the Workforce with Logan Gin, Ph.D.
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to the second part of our series on Accessibility in the Lab. Each episode explores the importance of accessibility in the lab, academia, the workforce and other applications.

In our first episode, we discussed accessibility in education to get a perspective on the accommodations and resources available for students. For this episode, we're exploring what accessibility looks like outside of education – the workforce – to understand how accessibility affects working professionals. Our guest joining us to share his unique perspective is Logan Gin, Ph.D., who is the assistant director of STEM education, at the Sheridan Center for Teaching and Learning at Brown University.

Key Learning Points:

  • What accessibility looks like for 
  • The best practices used in hiring to be more inclusive to all disabilities
  • What is considered a "reasonable accommodation" per ADA compliance
  • How accessibility in the workforce compares to education

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*For a transcript of this episode, please visit this episode's page on Buzzsprout.

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Hannah Rosen: Hello everyone and welcome to New Matter, the SLAS podcast where we interview life science luminaries. I'm your host, Hannah Rosen, and today we are continuing our series on accessibility in the lab by focusing on accessibility in the lab, in the workforce. Joining us today is Logan Gin, Assistant Director of STEM Education at the Sheridan Center for Teaching and Learning at Brown University. Welcome to the podcast Logan. 

Logan Gin: Hey and thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk today. 

Hannah Rosen: Our pleasure, we're excited too. So, to start off with, can you just kind of provide us with a little bit of your background and tell us what got you interested in the topic of accessibility in the lab? 

Logan Gin: So yeah, so thanks... thanks for the question. So, I... my background is in biology education. And so, I recently completed my PhD from Arizona State University in Biology and... and specifically studying dissertation work and in biology education coming at it from a background in undergraduate biology, where I... I did a bachelors in biology with a minor in chemistry at Brigham University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. And so what really got me interested in all of this work is my own personal experience navigating lab and coursework as an undergraduate student. So, one important thing to know about me is I have a physical disability, I have diastrophic dysplasia dwarfism. So, what that looks like is I am four feet tall on a good day, three foot eleven on a not so good day. But I... I really, you know, have physical challenges that are... that have intersected with the way that I experience my own education. So I... as an undergraduate student, I had some difficulties navigating lab spaces and classroom spaces, which really got me thinking about what this looks like on a broader scheme for... for other individuals with disabilities. So, I use forearm crutches and a scooter too to get about my day. But using such equipment in a lab setting has, you know, personally made it difficult. So, around the time that I was finishing up my own undergraduate degree, it really got me questioning and... and thinking about what accessibility looks like on a... on a broader scale and what it looks like for individuals in other disciplines beyond biology and beyond chemistry and other settings beyond just, you know, a lab or a... or a research experience, and then other types of disabilities as well and... and really thinking about how we can be... we can create accessible spaces for... for everyone, regardless of... of disability. And so, that really inspired me based on those own... my own personal experiences to pursue my... my PhD where I did my dissertation work focused on the experiences of students with disabilities in... in STEM learning environment. So... so thinking about as our... our university learning environments change in the 21st century and... and beyond, to what extent are we thinking about accommodations and accessibility in our spaces that our students are navigating. So the... the outcome of my dissertation, you know, put forward recommendations for how we can... can rethink both our in person classes, our online classes, and importantly and... and most relatedly, our research experiences for students at the undergraduate level. Primarily to think about, you know, more accessibility and inclusion of individuals with disabilities. 

Hannah Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. That's, you know, to that end, you know, I... I think that, you know, most of the people in this podcast have their own ideas, but in your opinion, you know, why should we care about accessibility in the workforce and in the lab specifically.  

Logan Gin: Yeah. Well one... I think there's a number of different approaches to it. One, it's just... it's the right thing to do, right? And, you know, kind of moral obligation to, you know, to include as many individuals as possible in... in the workforce. And if, you know, there are accessibility barriers, trying to remove those to allow participation of... of... of individuals with disabilities. There's certainly a legality component as well. Is that you know, not only are we tasked with. You know, a... a legal component to... to ensuring that that folks have equal access. But, you know, we also, you know, are... are required to do so. So there's, you know, kind of at... at the bare minimum, there's, you know, a legal and a, you know, a mandated requirement for... for accessibility. But beyond that, you know, it's... it's just the right thing to do in terms of thinking about diversity, equity and inclusion. One additional point in terms of thinking about accessibility and... and STEM workforces in particular is that individuals, you know, we often think about science as an objective process, right? But in fact science is, I would argue, more social of a process than what we often think it is, and... and the folks who are asking the questions, and driving the research questions, and driving the research in the workforce and research spaces are... it's influenced by who people are, and who and what people care about. So, neglecting a particular voice, or a particular type of individual, or type of experience is also neglecting, you know, who gets to do science, but also who gets to ask the questions that... that folks care about. So one, you know, concrete example could be you know, individuals who have never had access historically to, you know, the STEM workforce or the, you know, scientific research community. Including them adds additional perspectives that just, you know, have historically not been present. And especially as it relates to thinking about disability, and how disability impacts our lives, and... and... and... and impacts the way we do science, and just incredibly important to think about and including those individuals as well. 

Hannah Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's a great point because, you know, you're... what you're talking about is not just including the perspective of like, the needs of these other people who don't necessarily get a voice that often, aside from what you typically think of, but also just like having these other perspectives can broaden people's ideas of what science is possible. I feel like a lot of times with scientists you... you get stuck in a... in a box based on your experiences, and if you have... if you're incorporating people who have different experiences, you'll get a different perspective and that can broaden science, not just in things that affect these specific disabilities, but just science in general. 

Logan Gin: Yeah, to build off of... of... of that is in some of my own work and interviewing and... and talking with undergraduate students who are, you know, training to become scientists and... and move into the workforce, talk about the ways in which they think about problems from angles that many folks in academia or in research spaces just have not thought about before. One particular anecdote from a recent study that sticks out is a student with a disability works on autism research as an individual with autism, but he's the only individual on that research team that has a personal experience with autism. And he brings just an incredibly different and personal perspective to that research team that is incredibly valuable in those... in those spaces that was, prior to that, conducted by primarily and almost exclusively researchers without... without disability. So that's a very, you know, concrete example there, but there also, you know, are examples of... of just adding, you know, diversity of... of ideas, perspectives and experiences that can really enhance teams. And there's... there's literature that supports, you know, that diverse teams are stronger teams and... and things like that as well. 

Hannah Rosen: Absolutely it should. It's amazing because it shouldn't be a revolutionary thought that, person who's most well equipped to work on finding, you know, doing research on autism is somebody who actually has experiences with it themselves. But somehow it seems like that has kind of eluded us for way too long.  

Logan Gin: Yeah, and then I... I often think about, you know, if we're... if we're building teams, you know, adding perspective of individuals that this work likely... likely impacts, right? And... and I think oftentimes, you know, we are siloed and... and whether it be the workforce or in research, in terms of kind of what is that, you know, translation to... to practice and, you know, who is... who is this impacting and, you know, and... and what are the kind of implications for... for this work? And it's just, yeah, I... I think that could be an increasingly... a part of... of... of the scientific community which is, you know, again why we should care about this in the workforce. Another point that I often like to... to make is that is... is seeing disability as diversity and... and sometimes that can be lost in... in conversation where we often think about, you know diversity as, you know, other identities beyond disability. But that disability, you know, is a additional, and yet, you know, perhaps different, but an additional layer of... of diversity, of... of... of individuals, and... and including that in conversations around diversity, equity and inclusion can be really important that we don't forget about disability in those conversations. 

Hannah Rosen: So, when it comes down to actual hiring practices... so, say you are a academic institution or a company and you want to broaden out your... for employees to include, you know, more diversity, make sure that it's open to people with disabilities. What are some of like, the best practices that you can share when it comes to hiring to ensure that you're including people with all sorts of different disabilities? 

Logan Gin: Yeah, uh, and in terms of... of best practices, I... I am actually unsure if the suite of best practices do exist. I think there are some... some notions towards, you know, thinking about, you know, holistic application processes, things like, you know, non-discrimination, non-discriminatory policies similar to how we would treat other underrepresented groups and other identities. I think there is also some notion that, although disability is, you know, an important topic, an important to the individual, that it's not something that the employer should bring up or discuss and it should be at the discretion of the employee or the person who's interviewing or applying to discuss. And I think there's actually some legality issues around that, you know, should the employer ask questions or... and or not consider, you know, based on... on... on disability status. So, so you know, allowing it be, you know, kind of a self-report process, in a process that the individual is, you know, themselves is... is advocating or discussing is... is an important component and both... both legally but also, you know, in a... in a professional sense as well. 

Hannah Rosen: Yeah, is there any sort of like, language or signals that an employer could send out to their employees or potential employees to indicate that they are open to having those conversations and that the employee should feel free to bring it up if they feel that they need accommodations?  

Logan Gin: Yeah, and... and there is some... some standard language that you often see as part of... of job solicitation ads and... and things for equal opportunity employers and, you know, most academic agencies or institutions would provide language such as that. But... but, you know, that is certainly, you know, a first step in a signal that, you know, they are willing and... and able to work with individuals with... with disabilities and... and... and... and want to. Some of... some of the practices can go a step further where it takes, you know, not only just the standard language that is... is required, but it really, you know, moves it beyond to... to what that looks like in... in practice. So, if I'm, you know, if an individual is giving a job talk, for example, or a presentation prior to that, and allowing that individual to make the employer aware if they need any sort of accommodations or... or special request for... for making sure that they're able to... to... to perform as... as well as they... they... they wish to, and... and are able to. So, you know, so... so coordinating with that... that individual to make sure that they have everything that they need to be successful. And I think that could be something that, you know, not... not only do they talk the talk, but you know, in... in many ways they, you know, are walking the walk of... of what that looks like and in moving beyond just, you know, copy and paste language to actually making sure that that person is... truly has... has what they need to be a competitive candidate in that... in that job application process. 

Hannah Rosen: I like that because it's almost for the individual who is applying for the position and interviewing, a way for them to test the company or the... the institution to make sure that they will actually follow through in providing them with the accommodations they need. 

Logan Gin: And, personally speaking, to your earlier... earlier point, that's certainly a signal, right, for whether or not the company, the organization, the institution, values and... and really cares about accessibility and... and I've had an array of experiences where some things are not considered at all to, you know, folks that are... go above and beyond for ensuring that, you know, an... an applicant has... has what they has, what they need. So yeah, that... that can also be, you know, not in... in terms of thinking about workforce and... and uh, workforce placement, right? You know, ensuring that, as an individual with a disability, you're in an environment that is fostering, you know, inclusivity of individuals in its abilities that can be kind of a a first step for understanding what that might look like. 

Hannah Rosen: So, you know, conversations around accessibility and access, especially accessibility in the workforce, often center around the Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA, which does state that employers must provide reasonable accommodations to their employees with disabilities. But what I find very often is this gets really squishy because... with the term reasonable in there. So, I feel like a lot of times people might be uncomfortable asking for it... it's so subjective, you know, what is actually reasonable. And so, I was wondering if can you provide us with a little bit of context for what's typically considered a reasonable accommodation, and do people often feel comfortable asking for these accommodations and then do they actually receive them?  

Logan Gin: Yeah, so I... I can talk some about that from my... my perspective in... in undergraduate education we often consider reasonable accommodations to be those that don't fundamentally alter any curriculum in any way or... or an outcome in any way. So we're not, you know, we're not moving the... the goal post if you will, we are, you know, simply providing a route to getting through the goal... the goal post, right? So, we often think about this as, you know, the learning outcomes or the objectives of... of the course, the position. The requirements don't change, but there may be things in terms of accommodation that allow an individual to... to achieve those based on, you know, something that would be deemed appropriate for them... for them to do so. So... so reasonable, you know, I... I agree that it is a... a, you know, a squishy word as you said. But it is something that it... it's reasonable in the sense that it is... is able to be provided to an individual or a student, as in the example that I gave, but it doesn't fundamentally alter what the overarching goal of... of... of what that is. So, in the workforce it would be, you know, the... the job description or the job duties are not necessarily altered, but the ways in which someone may go about completing those could be modified in... in... in some way. And one, you know, perhaps reasonable accommodation, just very simply, it could be, you know, the hours that an individual works. So they're not necessarily, you know, we're not modifying anything around the job description, but we're modifying the means that they may be achieving that. So, perhaps someone needs extended breaks throughout the day. So, you know, they're able to... to incorporate that into their working day, but they're still at the end of the day, or at the end of the week accomplishing, kind of, what is sought out in that in that job description. And then to your... to your other point about, uh, whether folks are comfortable asking and receiving accommodations, that... that gets a little bit tricky. And I think it depends on a number of different factors. There's evidence and... and... and research that shows that advocating for accommodations can be really difficult. And in my work and undergraduate education, this can... can be particularly challenging where individuals, you know, are... are navigating this process and asking for accommodations, and the systems that they, you know, may be in and structures that they would need to go through to receive them can be particularly challenging where they're ,you know, having to meet with several different people and... and be vulnerable enough to, you know, share some of their experiences to in order to receive something that, you know, would be deemed reasonable and appropriate for them. And so that... that can be... can be... can be certainly issues, you know, just based on who we are as individuals, right, and how comfortable we feel discussing disability, you know, in terms of... of... of that self-advocacy piece for... for receiving those. An additional point is, you know, sometimes for... for invisible disabilities it could be particularly challenging where sometimes it's not as... “obvious” that someone has a disability and... and how it impacts them and... and making that clear to either, you know, an accommodations office or an employer or, you know, instructor. And in my instances that, you know, they... they need a particular accommodation and whether or not that's deemed reasonable can be sometimes an area of difficulty for individuals. 

Hannah Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. So, if it... there is an individual out there who is encountering some of those difficulties and having a hard time either communicating the accommodations they need or receiving them from their employer, are there like, what sort of legal options are there available for employees that are encountering struggles with this? 

Logan Gin: Similar to... to what we were discussing earlier, with... with ADA and... and... and why we should... should care about this, right, is that there are, you know, legal obligations for employers to provide you accommodations for individuals. And so... so similar to other identities in groups, you know, if... if an individual is, you know, discriminated against based on disability status, there are, you know, legal ramifications and legal options for... for... for employees similar to how it would be for, you know, other workforce and, you know, in other types of discrimination. So that... that's certainly an option. I am unfamiliar with many legal cases that have... have... have challenged that, uh, in the workforce, but I do know of several cases in... in the educational settings. In lab courses, for example, that have... have... have challenged, you know, what obtaining accommodations and in barriers to attaining accommodations have looked like, particularly around medical school training and nursing school training, where, you know, physical manipulation might be, you know, a learning outcome, if you will. And if an individual is unable to do that, kind of, you know, it does become some part of a gray area, you know, is there a physical requirement but also an accommodation that's able to be provided? I think that's an area that there are options in, you know, and in ways that employees can... can advocate for obtaining accommodations in those ways. 

Hannah Rosen: I wonder, does it seem to you as though, perhaps, in education we're a little bit ahead of in the workforce in terms of accessibility and just options available to... to people who are requesting those accommodations? 

Logan Gin: Yeah, and... and I would agree with that and I think it's... it's multifaceted in... in some ways, you know, we... we think a lot about accessibility and... and disability in, you know, even K12 education. And thinking about, you know, an IEP or an individualized education plan, for example, is something that's existed for over 50 years now, or nearly 50 years. And... and, you know, thinking about individuals and in... in that space, and then, you know, transitioning into a undergraduate space, you know, moving into college or community college or things like that, we've thought a little bit more about that as well. I think, where you know, the evolution of... of this goes is, you know, what happens once folks leave our training spaces and move into those workspaces, especially because historically, right, we weren't anticipating individuals with disabilities to... to get into these spaces. So, you know, naturally and... and evolutionarily as a, you know, field, you know, some of this makes sense for why some of these issues exist, and I... what I really urge and... and argue is that this should be, you know, considered at... at all levels, especially when we think about. you know, representation issues at the, you know, PhD level, or at the, you know, at in the industry compared to, you know, what it looks like in the general population, right? You know, we... we... it.... it shouldn't be surprising that... that this is happening based on our history of... of exclusion. But we should really be thinking at all levels about how... how we can foster... foster inclusion and accessibility and thus representation on those... those fronts. I know that there's some challenges with... with the way that Section 504, which led to IEP and those things, a lot of that framing was around vocational rehabilitation and getting individuals with disabilities, you know, in the high school setting, for example, just to graduate, right? And just to leave, you know, their K12 experience, get a high school diploma and become, you know, again, "a productive member of society”, whatever that looks like. But a lot of that what... what was over there was oversight in terms of, well, where are folks actually going? Are they, you know... you know, if they have the same amount of interest in going into STEM and science, but don't have the... the infrastructure and support, then, you know, then... then these individuals are finishing high school and, you know, and going into undergraduate spaces that... that haven't.... we haven't thought about what this looks like. And then, you know, as we... as we move up the... the ranks, right, we just have... have thought less and less about about what that looks like. So... so reframing some of that conversation, even at the very beginning of folks educational careers and... and, you know, elementary, middle, and high school that, you know, that science is a possibility and that, you know, we're gonna do what we can to support you through, you know, from, you know, K12 to undergraduate to... to the workforce can be really important. 

Hannah Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like we're just playing a lot of catch up at this point. 

Logan Gin: Yeah, yeah. And I... I think, until we think about this, uh, at all levels, you know, I... I think, you know, that will be the point that we can really start to... to... to see, you know, gaps close in terms of... of representation and things. But... but really thinking that, you know, if we... if we are designing and thinking about our spaces to include individuals with disabilities, it shouldn't be surprising that we have lack of representation. 

Hannah Rosen: Yeah well, so, speaking of which, you know, how does the physical layout of a commercial lab space influence accessibility and are lab spaces, new lab spaces, being designed with accessibility in mind? 

Logan Gin: Yeah, that's a great question and I think one way to think about it is spaces that were designed pre-ADA versus post ADA can... can have a really big influence on that. So, I went to the University of North Carolina, a school that prides itself on being the oldest public university in the country, where our lab spaces or, you know, buildings that were there for 50, 60, 70, you know, plus years, right? And... and so, what those spaces looked and felt like, you know, were not... accessibility wasn't at the forefront of design pre-ADA. That said, there are, you know, really neat, uh, space design implementation frameworks that have developed post ADA that can really influence what... what a space might look like. And one thing that... that comes to mind is, you need to universal design as a framework that drives some architecture, you know, thinking about how we can design spaces that are as accessible as possible for as many people as possible. So, you know, for example, if... if I'm going to, you know, if we're going to build a building, instead of placing, you know, a set of stairs towards the entrance, you know, we can make that a gradual ramp that allows folks, you know, any folks on wheels to be able to... to access that entrance. So that could be the, you know, the delivery person, you know, delivering packages, it could be the... the... the parent with the stroller or it could be, you know, an individual in a wheelchair, for example, you know, who's... who's all able to use that space where, if we were to just put, you know, stairs there, you know, it would be exclusionary in some way. So that's a framework that derived, you know, around the time of... of ADA. But, you know, really thinking about, can we design spaces, and in particular, you know, lab spaces or, you know, commercial or industry spaces in a way that... that our layout is... is as inclusive as possible. And some things... what that might look like is, you know, adjustable desks, for example, where, you know, you could... height adjustable desk where you could be a standing desk, a sitting desk, you know, you could put a wheelchair under it, you could, you know, if someone would want to stand, they could do that. And that... that can extend to lab benches as well, ensuring access, thinking about the placement of where we put our materials. And you know, limiting the amount of times, you know, folks need to move about or reach or do those things. Other things like, you know, signage in lab spaces can be important not only from a safety perspective, but from, you know, universal design perspective as... as well. Things like contrast can be really, really important on... on signage and on, you know, beakers for example and measuring equipment. So, there's a number of different things that, you know, we can think about that influence accessibility, but from a standpoint of, you know, it's... it's helpful for all individuals, including individuals of disabilities. 

Hannah Rosen: I'm curious what your perspective might be on the increases in automation that's happening in laboratories nowadays. More and more lots of processes are becoming automated. Do you see that as improving accessibility or are there potential drawbacks where it could limit accessibility in different ways? 

Logan Gin: Yeah, that... that's... I think that's a really important question and I think it's an open one and I think I have a personal opinion that might differ from... from others. But, you know, for example, you know, much of my own discipline in... in biology is moving to, you know, computational biology and... and... and, you know, work that, you know, is less and less wet lab work that folks are doing physical manipulation, which was in some ways a exclusionary barrier for me in my own lab experiences, I often sat on the periphery and watched my lab mate, some lab partners and you know, colleagues do the physical manipulation, yet I would take the data set and, you know, and analyze my data and that's what I loved about, and still do love about, you know, science and biology, which I think is... is in some ways, you know. Perhaps a silver lining where, you know, folks years ago, you know, wouldn’t perhaps be able to even think about doing a PhD in biology for example, in my own... in my own background in discipline. Bu,t you know, if we have, you know, large data... existing data sets, things like this, that... that I... It reduces the... the challenges and barriers for someone. Again, coming at it from my own personal perspective with the physical disability, that you know, perhaps we're expanding access in... in... in those ways, and that there are possibilities that, you know, weren't previously, you know, possibilities... that there are things that were able to happen so... so I... I'm... I'm optimistic on that front. But do you know there is, you know, some points of contention as well, because, right, you know if a... if an individual really wants to do a PhD in geology, for example, but there's access to... or you... you do work or... or have a job or, you know, do something in... in field work or you know, as I mentioned geology, you know, and there's... there's access barriers to that. You know, we should also be thinking on the front of OK, how can we reduce these barriers that allows an individual, you know, again, regardless of their background to pursue kind of, what they ultimately want to pursue. So... so I think it's... it's a... it's a bit of a muddy, muddy question, but I do think there are some... some silver linings as we... as we really think about automation and... and... and technology as well. Yeah again, saying that also with technology also introduces additional potential barriers as well. So... so kind of in some thinking about things on a, you know, as we introduce more automation and more technology, how can we be doing it thoughtfully that it's reducing as many barriers as possible and not introducing new ones with the additional technology that we're implementing. 

Hannah Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, you know, can you go into what might be some of the challenges that an individual with a disability may encounter in the workforce or in the lab that others might not expect or even be aware of? 

Logan Gin: I... I would draw this back some to um, the advocacy piece and the process by which individuals would be working towards receiving what they need so... so oftentimes there's, you know, as I was saying earlier, some kind of mis... misunderstanding about what accommodation processes look like, some administrative challenges on who to go to for these particular issues and really thinking about this... this holistically, kind of as a process by how individuals are... are accommodated in workforce spaces is... is something that I think is often overlooked and I think sometimes it's simplified. It's like oh, go talk to this person in this office and they will assist you. But in reality, what that looks like for... for... for someone isn't quite that simple. And I can only speak to... to my personal experience here, but there's often a lot of back and forth that goes on in terms of receiving accommodations where, so, for example, in my current position I am staff, but we so some of the... the disability accommodations handled under our Disability Services Office, but since I'm a staff and employee they can also be handled under our... our HR department. And there's a lot of back and forth in particular, actually with graduate students, because they hold kind of a nebulous and, you know, they wear many different hats, a hat as a student and a hat as a researcher and a hat as a, you know, instructor or teacher, right? So, their staff and student. It's, you know, what umbrella does that fall under? If they need an accommodation for teaching, for example, you know they would be OK, we'll go to HR, talk to this person. OK, well I need accommodation for my research experience and my research lab and it's like, well, OK, that... does that fall under you as a... as a employee or a student? But it's... it's also part of your training, right? And you know, but it's not in a traditional course manner like, you know, an undergraduate course, for example. So, I think there's... we often simplify, you know, that there is an individual and a point person, and in institutions and... and employers to... to... to do this. And I think in some... some cases they are, and they're excellent and they're experts in this area. But there's also, hearing from others and again drawing on my own experience, challenges that... that still exist in these areas for finding first the right people, but then also what works for, uh, for... for individuals. So I think it's... it's... it's multifaceted in terms of... of... of what the process looks like and... and trying to make that as transparent as possible to... to individuals can be really helpful. 

Hannah Rosen: Well, unfortunately we're almost at the end of our time. But before we say goodbye, I just wanted to ask, is there anything that we haven't had a chance to discuss today that you think is really important for our listeners to know about this topic? 

Logan Gin: Yeah, I would just say, you know, going back to... to why we should care about this in the first place and... and, you know, that it's... it's... it's, you know, not only is it legally required, right, and I... and I think we can engage folks at a number of different levels here, but, you know, one... one way to engage folks right is to say, OK, well, this is legally required as a company, as an industry, as a institution, you know, we need to do this in terms of compliance, and I think that's... that's one conversation and an important one to have. But I do really encourage individuals to move that conversation beyond just, you know, it's the legal thing to do, but it's the right thing to do, and, you know, and... and really, thinking about the themes that we talked about earlier of, you know, why it's important to include individuals with disabilities, what perspectives that they bring, and what contributions and assets individuals with disabilities bring to workforces to industries, to institutions, and to the scientific community as the... the moral and... and right thing to do, and it's... it's... it's only going to push us further as a society as we include more and more individuals and their perspectives. 

Hannah Rosen: Well Logan, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a really fascinating conversation and I look forward to continuing this discussion offline once we finish the podcast. The conversation shouldn't and won't end here. 

Logan Gin: Great, well thank you so much for having me, it's been a pleasure.